I had a roofer come out and check out my roof. He said it is 2 roofs, and that the newest one was in a really good shape and pretty new. He also mentioned I should get an extra downspout in my huge long north roof. Probably a good idea. So that means that as far as my house and everything go, I'm set to get solar installed.
Confirmed that REC Solar installs their systems on posts which are flashed to the roof, so when the roof needs to be re-done they can just take the panel frames down, re-roof, then put them right back on the same mounting poles they were on in the first place. Good to know. The roof will likely need to be replaced before the solar.
I still need to figure out what to do with the black walnut tree next to the house, so I'm going to try to get a tree specialist to come take a look at it and let me know how much it would cost to move it, trim it, cut it down, whatever.
I was discussing with a friend what I should do for shading on the south side of the house, especially if I have to cut the tree down. One of the things we came up with is to put in trellis mounted to the outside eave facing. Then I'd have trellis and some sort of vine growing along that side of the house. It has the disadvantage of blocking the house somewhat from sunlight during the winter, but in the summer it would work great. Another option is putting solar water heating along the wall, but while I'd like to have solar water heat also it wouldn't really do what I want it to do for shading the whole wall. For either solution (or some combination of both) I still need some sort of shading arrangement for the windows so that they are shaded all summer, but receive sunlight all winter. I'm not sure what I'm going to about it. Either way...those aren't on this year or probably next years agendas...unless I suddenly become very wealthy.
Monday, June 30, 2008
Thursday, June 26, 2008
Solar financing
I have no solid numbers for this, just vague assumptions based on looking at REC Solars page about Solar financing and what I've talked with my mortgage guy about in the past. So...this is my preliminary financing plan....
The 8kW REC system is going to cost me about $26,000 (probably a bit less, I'm not sure how much the monitor I want costs yet). I can get about $23,000 out of a home equity loan because I haven't owned the house long and because the housing market is tanked so bad at the moment. So I'm going to get the largest home equity loan I can get, then finance about $150/month worth of additional loan. That should be enough extra money to finish doing a few other things around the house like putting in a sidewalk and stairs, finishing the electrical, dealing with the walnut tree, etc.
So that's my current plan, now to see if I can make that work. Then I'll be in a tight financial situation for about 9 months and then I should be ok again. It'll mean I'm back to paying for my house for 30 years, and it might mean that I have to take a non-fixed loan which I really dislike, but all of that is fixable in the future as long as I'm clever and attentive. I intend to be both of those. heh.
If that all works, I'm quite a ways down my list of things to do for the house. In fact, I'd be down to doing almost luxury sorts of things. Solar hot water heater (if I can even do that with PV on the house), hot tub, furniture, audio/video update...really pretty much just luxury items. Oh...and getting an electric heating/cooling system for the house...hopefully a heat exchanger/dehydrator for cooling and type 2 radiant heat for heating. Oh yeah! And more insulation and weather proofing of the whole house...but I don't think that'll be very expensive, more just work intensive.
I need to find a good general contractor/handyman kind of person. Well...really I should just learn how to do all this stuff myself. But for me to feel comfortable doing that I'd want someone competent to teach me, and that doesn't seem to be an option unless I start flying my dad out here every few months for a couple of years.
The 8kW REC system is going to cost me about $26,000 (probably a bit less, I'm not sure how much the monitor I want costs yet). I can get about $23,000 out of a home equity loan because I haven't owned the house long and because the housing market is tanked so bad at the moment. So I'm going to get the largest home equity loan I can get, then finance about $150/month worth of additional loan. That should be enough extra money to finish doing a few other things around the house like putting in a sidewalk and stairs, finishing the electrical, dealing with the walnut tree, etc.
So that's my current plan, now to see if I can make that work. Then I'll be in a tight financial situation for about 9 months and then I should be ok again. It'll mean I'm back to paying for my house for 30 years, and it might mean that I have to take a non-fixed loan which I really dislike, but all of that is fixable in the future as long as I'm clever and attentive. I intend to be both of those. heh.
If that all works, I'm quite a ways down my list of things to do for the house. In fact, I'd be down to doing almost luxury sorts of things. Solar hot water heater (if I can even do that with PV on the house), hot tub, furniture, audio/video update...really pretty much just luxury items. Oh...and getting an electric heating/cooling system for the house...hopefully a heat exchanger/dehydrator for cooling and type 2 radiant heat for heating. Oh yeah! And more insulation and weather proofing of the whole house...but I don't think that'll be very expensive, more just work intensive.
I need to find a good general contractor/handyman kind of person. Well...really I should just learn how to do all this stuff myself. But for me to feel comfortable doing that I'd want someone competent to teach me, and that doesn't seem to be an option unless I start flying my dad out here every few months for a couple of years.
Wednesday, June 25, 2008
Solar estimates
I finally got through the final analysis of the current estimates last night. Here are the results:
One company came out and did an evaluation but never got back to me with an estimate. One company had a rep come out and basically told me that my roof needed work before the solar could be installed and even then they could only get a 2kw system installed even though I mentioned trimming back the tree next to the house. I'm getting the roof inspected as soon as I can to make sure that isn't correct. And I still need to verify a couple of things but this looks to be the end result.
Of the three companies that have been cooperative and helpful these are the numbers:
Rec Solar 8000W $25,000 including all fees and taxes but not including tax rebate.
IPS 9900W $38,115 plus taxes and fees (~3% of total) not including tax rebate
SRE 8000W $30,174 including all fees and taxes but not including tax rebate
So the question is still how much financing I can afford, but it's unlikely I'll decide to spend roughly $14,000 in order to get an additional 1.9kW of power. I'd love to have the additional power, but the payoff just isn't worth the expense, especially with all the great solar technology that is being invented right now.
I don't think I've mentioned the problem with the tree here, so here's a bit of info about that.
I have a black walnut tree about 10' from my south facing roof. It's not huge, but it does shade the roof where I want there to be solar panels. So it'll have to be trimmed severely, cut down or moved before I get the solar installed. I'd really rather not kill a tree that I don't have to kill, and I don't think I can afford to have it moved, so I'm hoping the amount it needs to be trimmed won't kill it and won't make it completely idiotic looking. However...black walnet isn't really a tree I'd have chosen to put in my yard. They don't provide enough shade for how big they are, they don't have leaves enough of the year, and they drop annoying nuts in the yard. On the other hand, it's kind of fun having squirrels running across the roof. That would annoy most people, but I think it's funny.
Shade is a tricky thing with solar panels. Each panel is made up of groups of chips. And then the panels are in groups like the chips. So, if you get a spot of complete darkness that covers enough chips it will shut down not just the chip that is covered but the group of chips it is in. If enough groups shut down, then the panel shuts down. If enough panels shut down, the the whole group of panels will shut down. So if you have even a small amount of very deep shade on the panels, there is a chance that from that chunk of deep shadow you could get a pretty significant percentage of your solar array to stop producing energy.
The reason this happens is that each subset has to produce a certain amount of power in order to trigger it's connection to the others. If the chip doesn't produce enough power to get beyond that threshold it never turns on and so no power flows out of it. That scales up in the same way all the way up to the entire array.
So now I am waiting for verification of a couple of things, then I have to start trying to get the financing and hope that the estimates don't change much or at all, and that they are accurate and I can afford to pay for solar. Otherwise...time to start saving up significant amounts of money.
One company came out and did an evaluation but never got back to me with an estimate. One company had a rep come out and basically told me that my roof needed work before the solar could be installed and even then they could only get a 2kw system installed even though I mentioned trimming back the tree next to the house. I'm getting the roof inspected as soon as I can to make sure that isn't correct. And I still need to verify a couple of things but this looks to be the end result.
Of the three companies that have been cooperative and helpful these are the numbers:
Rec Solar 8000W $25,000 including all fees and taxes but not including tax rebate.
IPS 9900W $38,115 plus taxes and fees (~3% of total) not including tax rebate
SRE 8000W $30,174 including all fees and taxes but not including tax rebate
So the question is still how much financing I can afford, but it's unlikely I'll decide to spend roughly $14,000 in order to get an additional 1.9kW of power. I'd love to have the additional power, but the payoff just isn't worth the expense, especially with all the great solar technology that is being invented right now.
I don't think I've mentioned the problem with the tree here, so here's a bit of info about that.
I have a black walnut tree about 10' from my south facing roof. It's not huge, but it does shade the roof where I want there to be solar panels. So it'll have to be trimmed severely, cut down or moved before I get the solar installed. I'd really rather not kill a tree that I don't have to kill, and I don't think I can afford to have it moved, so I'm hoping the amount it needs to be trimmed won't kill it and won't make it completely idiotic looking. However...black walnet isn't really a tree I'd have chosen to put in my yard. They don't provide enough shade for how big they are, they don't have leaves enough of the year, and they drop annoying nuts in the yard. On the other hand, it's kind of fun having squirrels running across the roof. That would annoy most people, but I think it's funny.
Shade is a tricky thing with solar panels. Each panel is made up of groups of chips. And then the panels are in groups like the chips. So, if you get a spot of complete darkness that covers enough chips it will shut down not just the chip that is covered but the group of chips it is in. If enough groups shut down, then the panel shuts down. If enough panels shut down, the the whole group of panels will shut down. So if you have even a small amount of very deep shade on the panels, there is a chance that from that chunk of deep shadow you could get a pretty significant percentage of your solar array to stop producing energy.
The reason this happens is that each subset has to produce a certain amount of power in order to trigger it's connection to the others. If the chip doesn't produce enough power to get beyond that threshold it never turns on and so no power flows out of it. That scales up in the same way all the way up to the entire array.
So now I am waiting for verification of a couple of things, then I have to start trying to get the financing and hope that the estimates don't change much or at all, and that they are accurate and I can afford to pay for solar. Otherwise...time to start saving up significant amounts of money.
Thursday, June 12, 2008
Solar home visits
All 5 of the companies I've contacted have been out to my house now to do the initial site inspection.
REC Solar
Standard Renewable Energy
Cool Solar
Solar Independent Power Systems
Namaste Solar
I've talked to each company about the house, they've taken measurements of the roof and we've talked about how much of the roof I want to use, which parts are the most efficient to use, etc. Some of them did Solmetric readings and pictures to use in a computer program to put together a pretty accurate estimate of how much the shading around my house will affect my energy production at various times of the year and times of the day.
The Solmetric camera and the device that goes with it are very cool. The old style was pretty inaccurate and involved sort of getting on the roof and making some measurements and guesses about shading. Then a device with a big domed top was invented and you basically set it down in the right orientation and used a piece of chalk to mark out where there was shade at the moment, then did some correlation with the date and time to figure out what the effects on different dates and times would be. This is a very very clever little device. Then someone said "Hey...why don't we just take a picture of that, and build a computer program that takes all that data and does the projection? That would be radically faster and more accurate." So that's what they do. And what you get, with this great piece of software from NREL is a very accurate estimate using actual shading data from your actually situation to tell you with a high accuracy exactly how much solar energy every part of your useable roof will get through out the year.
So...one of the companies needs to come back out and do that, one didn't really even bother to offer and just sort of said "I can't see getting more than a 2kw system out of your roof" and the others have already done the pictures. So I'm waiting for the 4 final estimates then I'll write up all of the information I have about all of the options.
It'll be quite a bit of data...I'm hoping to organize it a bit better than what I've been doing so far.
Oh...and there's a chance that I'm a bit confused about the devices for the shading thing. I think the Solmetric is merely one brand of shading calculation equipment and that the camera used isn't special, just the device set up with the bubble on top and then the camera is a normal camera used in just the right way. I never remembered to get that clarified and the short research I did into it online hasn't been conclusive yet.
I'm likely going to have to cut my black walnut tree back quite a bit. I'm ok with that, I just hope it's not too bad. It doesn't seem to shade the roof that much to me except for 2 branches, but I'm certainly not an expert and will wait for the results of the magic shade calculation device.
REC Solar
Standard Renewable Energy
Cool Solar
Solar Independent Power Systems
Namaste Solar
I've talked to each company about the house, they've taken measurements of the roof and we've talked about how much of the roof I want to use, which parts are the most efficient to use, etc. Some of them did Solmetric readings and pictures to use in a computer program to put together a pretty accurate estimate of how much the shading around my house will affect my energy production at various times of the year and times of the day.
The Solmetric camera and the device that goes with it are very cool. The old style was pretty inaccurate and involved sort of getting on the roof and making some measurements and guesses about shading. Then a device with a big domed top was invented and you basically set it down in the right orientation and used a piece of chalk to mark out where there was shade at the moment, then did some correlation with the date and time to figure out what the effects on different dates and times would be. This is a very very clever little device. Then someone said "Hey...why don't we just take a picture of that, and build a computer program that takes all that data and does the projection? That would be radically faster and more accurate." So that's what they do. And what you get, with this great piece of software from NREL is a very accurate estimate using actual shading data from your actually situation to tell you with a high accuracy exactly how much solar energy every part of your useable roof will get through out the year.
So...one of the companies needs to come back out and do that, one didn't really even bother to offer and just sort of said "I can't see getting more than a 2kw system out of your roof" and the others have already done the pictures. So I'm waiting for the 4 final estimates then I'll write up all of the information I have about all of the options.
It'll be quite a bit of data...I'm hoping to organize it a bit better than what I've been doing so far.
Oh...and there's a chance that I'm a bit confused about the devices for the shading thing. I think the Solmetric is merely one brand of shading calculation equipment and that the camera used isn't special, just the device set up with the bubble on top and then the camera is a normal camera used in just the right way. I never remembered to get that clarified and the short research I did into it online hasn't been conclusive yet.
I'm likely going to have to cut my black walnut tree back quite a bit. I'm ok with that, I just hope it's not too bad. It doesn't seem to shade the roof that much to me except for 2 branches, but I'm certainly not an expert and will wait for the results of the magic shade calculation device.
Thursday, June 5, 2008
Solar related
I've got a rep from Standard Renewable Energy (formerly Sunflower) coming out to the house today to give me an estimate, then next week someone from Namaste Solar will be out. After that I'll be making an appointment for Independent Power Systems to come out for an estimate. I need to find out financing options from all of them since the housing market here is so messed up that I can't get enough money to do the solar install out of a house refinance at the moment. So...if none of the solar companies can give me financing that is affordable, I'll have to wait until my house is valuable enough to get me a big enough home equity loan to pay for it. But at least I'll have gotten the specific estimates from the companies and know which system I want to be installed and by whom.
Hopefully the amazing mortgage guy I talk to is correct and this will be a short term dip here and my house will be back to it's most recent value in a few months. I wish my house were actually valued the way Zillow.com says it should be, but my tax assessment was as low as the current Realtor assessed value. As he pointed out, the foreclosure rate during the Great Depression was something like 34%, and even now at the worst its been in a long time, its about 4%. Of course, it appears the average house value in the US is plunging faster than it did during the depression...so maybe that 34% is just in the future yet.
Hopefully the amazing mortgage guy I talk to is correct and this will be a short term dip here and my house will be back to it's most recent value in a few months. I wish my house were actually valued the way Zillow.com says it should be, but my tax assessment was as low as the current Realtor assessed value. As he pointed out, the foreclosure rate during the Great Depression was something like 34%, and even now at the worst its been in a long time, its about 4%. Of course, it appears the average house value in the US is plunging faster than it did during the depression...so maybe that 34% is just in the future yet.
Monday, June 2, 2008
More Solar information.
This isn't going to be very organized unfortunately. This is information I've received so far by doing more research on the web, talking to Jeff Martin@REC Solar and especially from this great site Solar Dave. He's even offered to interview me once I get my system installed, which would be interesting.
At this point, I'm waiting to get estimates from a few other companies before deciding on what I'm getting installed and by who. And of course...financing. If I can't get financing that suits my current income none of this will be possible. I'm still searching around for options and talking to my incredibly amazing mortgage guy.
So here's a chunk of info:
Getting the rebate through Xcel requires that you sign a 20 year contract of some sort. The implication I've heard/seen so far is that you have to agree not to go off grid or install power storage in your house for 20 years. It makes sense...they are giving a gigantic amount of other peoples money in the solar installation rebates, and that money is given to them with the agreement that they use it to promote renewable energy sources. So basically Xcel is paying me a bunch of money to stay attached to the grid and continue generating energy via my solar panels and putting it back into the grid. I'm ok with that. I'd rather have some sort of storage so that if the grid goes down when the solar isn't producing enough I still have power, but maybe some sort of compromise solution is possible. I'll have to find out from Xcel and from the contract when I see it.
I've seen estimates that having an electric car or plugin hybrid increases your system size by about 1kW. Of course, most of the time you're going to be recharging the car when the solar isn't producing, so the 1kW is an approximation for how much additional power you'll have to generate with the system when the sun is available to offset charging the car at night.
I've been looking at the Kyocera, Sanyo, BP and Mitsubishi panels. This is just my take on things, but it looks to me that the Sanyos are the best of the bunch with the Kyocera and BP panels being tied for second and then the Mitsubishi panels are in last. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they're all good panels. Here's why I rank them in my mind the way I do:
Sanyo
HIP-195BA are hybrid panels of single crystalline silicon surrounded by amorphous silicon layers. This apparently makes them higher efficiency and gives them the ability to generate energy at lower light levels. If I remember correctly they are more strongly affected by high temperatures, but where I live that isn't a big deal since it doesn't get hot enough to show a difference. Getting comparable efficiency numbers out of the panel makers seems to be somewhat difficult, but these are supposed to be 17% efficient. Higher efficiency means higher energy generation per square foot, so in theory I'm maximizing the amount of power I can generate using higher efficiency panels. The problem being that they are $7.69/DC Watt. The cells are 52"x35"
Kyocera
KD205 GX-LP are polysilicon and have an efficiency of 14.2%. They have a cost of $7.00/DC Watt so quite a bit cheaper than the Sanyos. The cells are 59"x39". So not only are they larger than the Sanyos, they are less efficient.
BP
I haven't looked into these very well, I've been told they are pretty close to the Kyoceras.
Mitsubishi
PV-UO185MFS are 13% efficient, they cost $7.08/DC Watt and are 65"x33". So more expensive, larger and less efficient than the Kyoceras. Apparently people that buy them are buying them for the name.
Xcels rebate is $4.50/Watt or something like that.
Hmmm...that's all I've got at the moment.
At this point, I'm waiting to get estimates from a few other companies before deciding on what I'm getting installed and by who. And of course...financing. If I can't get financing that suits my current income none of this will be possible. I'm still searching around for options and talking to my incredibly amazing mortgage guy.
So here's a chunk of info:
Getting the rebate through Xcel requires that you sign a 20 year contract of some sort. The implication I've heard/seen so far is that you have to agree not to go off grid or install power storage in your house for 20 years. It makes sense...they are giving a gigantic amount of other peoples money in the solar installation rebates, and that money is given to them with the agreement that they use it to promote renewable energy sources. So basically Xcel is paying me a bunch of money to stay attached to the grid and continue generating energy via my solar panels and putting it back into the grid. I'm ok with that. I'd rather have some sort of storage so that if the grid goes down when the solar isn't producing enough I still have power, but maybe some sort of compromise solution is possible. I'll have to find out from Xcel and from the contract when I see it.
I've seen estimates that having an electric car or plugin hybrid increases your system size by about 1kW. Of course, most of the time you're going to be recharging the car when the solar isn't producing, so the 1kW is an approximation for how much additional power you'll have to generate with the system when the sun is available to offset charging the car at night.
I've been looking at the Kyocera, Sanyo, BP and Mitsubishi panels. This is just my take on things, but it looks to me that the Sanyos are the best of the bunch with the Kyocera and BP panels being tied for second and then the Mitsubishi panels are in last. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they're all good panels. Here's why I rank them in my mind the way I do:
Sanyo
HIP-195BA are hybrid panels of single crystalline silicon surrounded by amorphous silicon layers. This apparently makes them higher efficiency and gives them the ability to generate energy at lower light levels. If I remember correctly they are more strongly affected by high temperatures, but where I live that isn't a big deal since it doesn't get hot enough to show a difference. Getting comparable efficiency numbers out of the panel makers seems to be somewhat difficult, but these are supposed to be 17% efficient. Higher efficiency means higher energy generation per square foot, so in theory I'm maximizing the amount of power I can generate using higher efficiency panels. The problem being that they are $7.69/DC Watt. The cells are 52"x35"
Kyocera
KD205 GX-LP are polysilicon and have an efficiency of 14.2%. They have a cost of $7.00/DC Watt so quite a bit cheaper than the Sanyos. The cells are 59"x39". So not only are they larger than the Sanyos, they are less efficient.
BP
I haven't looked into these very well, I've been told they are pretty close to the Kyoceras.
Mitsubishi
PV-UO185MFS are 13% efficient, they cost $7.08/DC Watt and are 65"x33". So more expensive, larger and less efficient than the Kyoceras. Apparently people that buy them are buying them for the name.
Xcels rebate is $4.50/Watt or something like that.
Hmmm...that's all I've got at the moment.
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